{The following is from early in a discussion on Milli-Nukes on Let's Roll Forums just prior to my banishment in another thread for addressing the admin with a mister honorific.}
To fill every one in who might be joining this discussion late, nuclear devices have four adjustable design factors: yield of blast wave, yield of heat wave, electrical magnetic pulse (EMP), and radiation.
An EMP is emitted line-of-sight from the detonation point and induces high currents in certain metals. Those high currents can lead to high temperatures that then burn off things like paint and plastic door handles, if it doesn't start to soften the metal itself. Electronic devices are susceptible to its effects, whereby integrated circuit chips and whatnot can get zapped quickly.
Distance and shielding/shading are factors in mitigating EMP. An open-air detonation would have more EMP side-effects than an underground one, whereby the latter have almost no EMP effects outside the kill zone. In the case of the 9/11, the towers presented structure and content that would have limited any EMP, except for window slits or parts of the structure that were removed by other means. Other buildings and things also would have reduced wide-spread EMP side-effects.
2011-02-11
Russian Agent's Nuclear Hypothesis
{The following is a snippet from a Let's Roll Forum where others were promoting Dimitri Khalezov and his contention that deep underground nukes brought down the twin towers.}
When links to interview with Dimitri Khalezov were posted before, I wrote:
[QUOTE] "All disinformation has one redeeming quality. In order for it to be believable, it has to be built on a sound foundation of truth. Our purpose as rational and intelligent beings is to sift through information in search of the nuggets of the truth, or the data points that make up trend lines. Recognizing the subtle bullshit will be hard. We have to learn to keep our human prejudices in check; and know that we're being played as well ourselves.
"I'll be passing Mr. Khalezov's data through the magnifying glass of disinformation, so that the truths aren't too quickly dismissed when an occasional patch of bullshit is laid. I'll be making up my own mind, and recommend others do the same." [/QUOTE]
...
[QUOTE] DK: Yes. Because it occurred deep underground. If it were on the surface level or above it, the 150 kiloton bomb would almost destroy New York City in its entirety, as well as making the rest of it uninhabitable. Just imagine that 150 kiloton is 8 times the size of the first atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima. However, since the 150 kiloton bombs detonated deep under each of the WTC Twin Towers and under the WTC-7 they did not cause much damage - just only the damage you can see in the immediate aftermath of the actual WTC demolition on 9/11. [/QUOTE]
I take major issue with two points.
[1] "Deep underground"?!! There is absolutely no evidence of this, or Mr. Khalezov will have to be much more specific about what deep means. The "bathtub" on which the WTC complex was built went below grade only 75 feet or so. A notable anomaly of the event was that their demolition experts made sure that the bathtub was not damaged or only minimally so.
Moreover, the demolition of the towers themselves can be observed happening top-down, as if there were two (to six ) milli-nukes placed through out the structures to get the extreme pulverization of content. This isn't to say that milli-nukes weren't also in a basement level (as testified by Mr. W. Rodriquez). But Mr. Khalezov seems to imply that "deep underground" nukes accomplished the observed top-down destruction. The rational side of me does not agree with this.
[2] 150 kiloton bombs?!! Now maybe if Mr. Khalezov would remove the "kilo" and/or replace it with "milli" and recognize that it could be multiple per tower, he would be approaching the right magnitude both needed and observed.
He shoots his theories in the foot by repeatedly talking about 150kT nukes (here and in other interviews) particularly when he says that it is "8 times the size of the first atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima." This is obviously not what was observed.
When links to interview with Dimitri Khalezov were posted before, I wrote:
[QUOTE] "All disinformation has one redeeming quality. In order for it to be believable, it has to be built on a sound foundation of truth. Our purpose as rational and intelligent beings is to sift through information in search of the nuggets of the truth, or the data points that make up trend lines. Recognizing the subtle bullshit will be hard. We have to learn to keep our human prejudices in check; and know that we're being played as well ourselves.
"I'll be passing Mr. Khalezov's data through the magnifying glass of disinformation, so that the truths aren't too quickly dismissed when an occasional patch of bullshit is laid. I'll be making up my own mind, and recommend others do the same." [/QUOTE]
...
[QUOTE] DK: Yes. Because it occurred deep underground. If it were on the surface level or above it, the 150 kiloton bomb would almost destroy New York City in its entirety, as well as making the rest of it uninhabitable. Just imagine that 150 kiloton is 8 times the size of the first atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima. However, since the 150 kiloton bombs detonated deep under each of the WTC Twin Towers and under the WTC-7 they did not cause much damage - just only the damage you can see in the immediate aftermath of the actual WTC demolition on 9/11. [/QUOTE]
I take major issue with two points.
[1] "Deep underground"?!! There is absolutely no evidence of this, or Mr. Khalezov will have to be much more specific about what deep means. The "bathtub" on which the WTC complex was built went below grade only 75 feet or so. A notable anomaly of the event was that their demolition experts made sure that the bathtub was not damaged or only minimally so.
Moreover, the demolition of the towers themselves can be observed happening top-down, as if there were two (to six ) milli-nukes placed through out the structures to get the extreme pulverization of content. This isn't to say that milli-nukes weren't also in a basement level (as testified by Mr. W. Rodriquez). But Mr. Khalezov seems to imply that "deep underground" nukes accomplished the observed top-down destruction. The rational side of me does not agree with this.
[2] 150 kiloton bombs?!! Now maybe if Mr. Khalezov would remove the "kilo" and/or replace it with "milli" and recognize that it could be multiple per tower, he would be approaching the right magnitude both needed and observed.
He shoots his theories in the foot by repeatedly talking about 150kT nukes (here and in other interviews) particularly when he says that it is "8 times the size of the first atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima." This is obviously not what was observed.
Left Right
{The following is a snippet from a discussion on AlterNet with John regarding milli-nukes. This is John Wright (aka LeftWright) of 9/11 Blogger. That on-list discussion led to some off-list email exchanges. Those very cordial exchanges ended with the ball in John's court to see if some knowledgeable scientific co-workers would agree with my assessment. At the clip of about once I month, I pinged John to remind him respectfully that the ball was still in his court regarding getting the views of his scientific co-workers and convincing me/him that milli-nukes weren't used on 9/11. It should be pointed out that they won't let me into 9/11 Blogger because I champion both milli-nukes and elements of the "no-(commercial)-planes" theories.}
Let me start with your conclusion:
"I have shown that nothing you cite is exclusively explained by the use of nukes. Therefore, absent some other positive evidence, it is illogical and unreasonable to postulate that they were used on 9/11/01."
Not true. Whereas there is overlap between (a) nukes and (b) thermite/nanothermite & explosives/incendiaries and these mechanisms may have been used together for fail-safe redundancy (because they really really really wanted the WTC complex destroyed), the three main areas where your mechanisms cannot logically and reasonably explain what was observed are:
- the under-rubble fire duration
- the energy required for the totality of the destruction
- EMP
Let me start with your conclusion:
"I have shown that nothing you cite is exclusively explained by the use of nukes. Therefore, absent some other positive evidence, it is illogical and unreasonable to postulate that they were used on 9/11/01."
Not true. Whereas there is overlap between (a) nukes and (b) thermite/nanothermite & explosives/incendiaries and these mechanisms may have been used together for fail-safe redundancy (because they really really really wanted the WTC complex destroyed), the three main areas where your mechanisms cannot logically and reasonably explain what was observed are:
- the under-rubble fire duration
- the energy required for the totality of the destruction
- EMP
2011-01-11
Beyond High School Physics
{The following is an off-list email. It did lead to a cordial brief exchange with Physics Teacher Mr. Chandler. Mr. Chandler has done great works for 9/11 truth. My milli-nukes contention stands on his shoulders. Alas, Mr. Chandler was not in an academic position to comment on milli-nukes, with it being well outside his area of interest and expertise. He wished me well in making my case, though.}
Dear Mr. Chandler & Mr. Cole,
I highly respect the work you two have provided to the 9/11 Truth Movement. I agree with your conclusions. I understand and agree with your goals:
We need a real forensic investigation, the real perpetrators of 9/11 need to be held accountable, and the world needs Truth.
Until I am convinced otherwise, my present beliefs about 9/11 have me championing two fringe theories that have been supposedly dismissed and debunked by the 9/11 Truth Movement. (For this reason, I am not permitted to post on 9/11 Blogger.) I am not married to either one, and will not be hurt if they are proven wrong. After all, your work represents my "fall back position" regarding the physics of the official govt conspiracy theory (OGCT) not adding up and thereby proving an insider conspiracy. However, to date, neither have been proven wrong in my books. And I'm writing, I suppose, to be set right about at least one of those fringe theories: that 9/11 was a nuclear event.
I've noticed that A&E for 9/11 Truth (of which I am a member) dances around the potential of milli-nukes in explaining the WTC destruction observed. Specifically, they make the case that a gravitational collapse cannot explain the speed, the pulverization of content, the ejection of content, the thoroughness of the destruction, or the foundry-hot fires burning under the rubble for months. It hints that these are huge energy sinks. Because nano-thermite was found in various dust samples, this is practically touted as the likely cause but isn't called out explicitly as the cause.
Not that thermitic compounds (together with a host of back-up and redundant demolition techniques) weren't employed in some fashion, it is the physics of nano-thermite that also rules it out as explaining all of the observable features. In order to melt steel (e.g., cutter charge), thermitic compounds have a fast burn rate. Doing the math on the quantities of such thermitic compounds that would be necessary to sustain under-rubble, foundry-hot fires for weeks/months results in massive quantities that would have been unlikely to have been present. Plus, thermitic compounds would melt/cut steel, but would not necessarily pulverize content/concrete and eject debris.
To the above, we have to add the damage to vehicles outside the radius of falling debris and testimonies from EMTs regarding car doors getting blown off, etc.
Dear Mr. Chandler & Mr. Cole,
I highly respect the work you two have provided to the 9/11 Truth Movement. I agree with your conclusions. I understand and agree with your goals:
We need a real forensic investigation, the real perpetrators of 9/11 need to be held accountable, and the world needs Truth.
Until I am convinced otherwise, my present beliefs about 9/11 have me championing two fringe theories that have been supposedly dismissed and debunked by the 9/11 Truth Movement. (For this reason, I am not permitted to post on 9/11 Blogger.) I am not married to either one, and will not be hurt if they are proven wrong. After all, your work represents my "fall back position" regarding the physics of the official govt conspiracy theory (OGCT) not adding up and thereby proving an insider conspiracy. However, to date, neither have been proven wrong in my books. And I'm writing, I suppose, to be set right about at least one of those fringe theories: that 9/11 was a nuclear event.
I've noticed that A&E for 9/11 Truth (of which I am a member) dances around the potential of milli-nukes in explaining the WTC destruction observed. Specifically, they make the case that a gravitational collapse cannot explain the speed, the pulverization of content, the ejection of content, the thoroughness of the destruction, or the foundry-hot fires burning under the rubble for months. It hints that these are huge energy sinks. Because nano-thermite was found in various dust samples, this is practically touted as the likely cause but isn't called out explicitly as the cause.
Not that thermitic compounds (together with a host of back-up and redundant demolition techniques) weren't employed in some fashion, it is the physics of nano-thermite that also rules it out as explaining all of the observable features. In order to melt steel (e.g., cutter charge), thermitic compounds have a fast burn rate. Doing the math on the quantities of such thermitic compounds that would be necessary to sustain under-rubble, foundry-hot fires for weeks/months results in massive quantities that would have been unlikely to have been present. Plus, thermitic compounds would melt/cut steel, but would not necessarily pulverize content/concrete and eject debris.
To the above, we have to add the damage to vehicles outside the radius of falling debris and testimonies from EMTs regarding car doors getting blown off, etc.
Eating Tin-Foil Hat
{The following is an extract from an exchange on the Mopar politics forum.}
It wasn't about going after Osama bin Laden or the Taliban. It was about building a natural gas pipeline across Afghanistan that the Taliban rejected. Moreover, after 9/11, the Taliban offered to hand over OBL, providing the US offered proof that he did it. The US didn't, and the FBI still hasn't listed OBL on its most-wanted list for 9/11, because of a "lack of evidence", their words, not mine.
On the Iraq front, invasion was on the table before the neo-cons even took office. They were looking for any excuse and tried to make them complicit for 9/11. The prize was their oil fields. Another prize was also establishing a permanent military presence in the Middle East, because the Saudi's (and OBL himself) did not want US military forces in the holy lands any more. (Whatever OBL wants, OBL gets. He's one of our assets, all the way up to 9/11... and beyond his likely death probably more than a few years ago.)
All that nonsense you write about UN resolutions and Saddam being in violation? He wasn't. And in fact, he complied! He did let weapons inspectors back in before the deadline, gave them access, etc. The UN weapons inspectors themselves begged for more time. But No-oooo! Bush was going to invade Iraq for its oil fields to divy up and give to his oil crony backers no matter what.
BTW, where are those weapons of mass destruction?
Bush needed 9/11, because without it, America never would have supported invasion of Afghanistan, period. And Iraq was highly questionable as well, because Saddam was very much contained in the no-fly-zone.
Bush needed 9/11, because he needed to pave over for good-and-gone the evidence of the misdeeds of his father's administration coming due, as well as the Pentagon's unaccounted for $2.3 trillion in transactions and many other corporate criminal cases against his loyal supporters (Enron anyone?)
Bush needed 9/11, because there was insurance money to scoop up, insider trading to take advantage of, and the US economy to take down several pegs. Foreclosures and bankruptcies are bad for real people, but not for those with means who are happy to buy up for pennies on the dollar real brick-and-mortar establishments (and not silly paper stocks). Yes, I'm saying the pile-driving of our economy was planned and desired by those elite who pull Bush & Cheney's strings, because they are globalist, not patriotic nationalist (and certainly not simplistic loyal football fanatics.)
It wasn't about going after Osama bin Laden or the Taliban. It was about building a natural gas pipeline across Afghanistan that the Taliban rejected. Moreover, after 9/11, the Taliban offered to hand over OBL, providing the US offered proof that he did it. The US didn't, and the FBI still hasn't listed OBL on its most-wanted list for 9/11, because of a "lack of evidence", their words, not mine.
On the Iraq front, invasion was on the table before the neo-cons even took office. They were looking for any excuse and tried to make them complicit for 9/11. The prize was their oil fields. Another prize was also establishing a permanent military presence in the Middle East, because the Saudi's (and OBL himself) did not want US military forces in the holy lands any more. (Whatever OBL wants, OBL gets. He's one of our assets, all the way up to 9/11... and beyond his likely death probably more than a few years ago.)
All that nonsense you write about UN resolutions and Saddam being in violation? He wasn't. And in fact, he complied! He did let weapons inspectors back in before the deadline, gave them access, etc. The UN weapons inspectors themselves begged for more time. But No-oooo! Bush was going to invade Iraq for its oil fields to divy up and give to his oil crony backers no matter what.
BTW, where are those weapons of mass destruction?
Bush needed 9/11, because without it, America never would have supported invasion of Afghanistan, period. And Iraq was highly questionable as well, because Saddam was very much contained in the no-fly-zone.
Bush needed 9/11, because he needed to pave over for good-and-gone the evidence of the misdeeds of his father's administration coming due, as well as the Pentagon's unaccounted for $2.3 trillion in transactions and many other corporate criminal cases against his loyal supporters (Enron anyone?)
Bush needed 9/11, because there was insurance money to scoop up, insider trading to take advantage of, and the US economy to take down several pegs. Foreclosures and bankruptcies are bad for real people, but not for those with means who are happy to buy up for pennies on the dollar real brick-and-mortar establishments (and not silly paper stocks). Yes, I'm saying the pile-driving of our economy was planned and desired by those elite who pull Bush & Cheney's strings, because they are globalist, not patriotic nationalist (and certainly not simplistic loyal football fanatics.)
2010-12-30
Agent Hauptstadter
Sehr geehrter Herr Hauptstadter,
Take a step back and view the identity issue as thus. No arabic names were on the flight manifests that I have seen, and no names aligned with the named suspects/patsies which was broadcast within a couple days of the event complete with pictures. And when some of the named suspects are alive and well in foreign countries and disputing their involvement, a rational person would think: "Ah, just a case of identity theft that we've learned to be fearful of because of those damn Mexican laborers stealing the manual labor jobs that no one wants and having to fake their identification and social security information to be paid."
A hallmark of the G.W.Bush and his administration was to never admit they were wrong. On anything. Ever. Not even doing cocaine or not fulfilling national guard service. Nothing.
The FBI and others could easily have said, "Oops! My bad. Yes, indeed, identity theft occurred." The reason they didn't was that it opened up a can of worms for which they didn't have a full explanation worked out, and lying on the fly is bad form and is easily caught. No Arabic named passenger A on the manifest? Arabic named person alive and well? Then what passenger name X was used instead? How did the hijacker get that fake identification? Are there conflicts with the name X and a real person X already accounted for on the flight?
So, just like the initial NIST documents on the WTC destruction ignored WTC-7, just like the 9/11 Commission ignored and omitted things like Able Danger, Sibel Edmunds, Mr. Rodriquez, Mr. Jennings & Mr. Hesh, ... just like the NIST/FEMA assumed it was commercial aircraft and office fires so didn't test for accelerants or plutonium, the FBI on this hijacker front had to ignore this incongruity.
It was important for the 9/11 cheerleaders to be in lock-step on all points, however stupid or debunked. Keep repeating the lie. National Security was indeed at stake even if the cheerleaders suspected they were giving lip service to lies. If any of the lies are exposed, the whole house of cards could come down and the fallout will be our nation, certainly our govt, and most definitely the job security of those in govt at all levels.
Yes, they may have given their oath to the Constitution, but by golly their family still needs to be fed, and the consequence to wanna-be whistle-blowers was made clear. When did the Anthrax attacks occur, who was targeted, and who did they blame?
The issue with the DNA is an issue with the aircraft. You see, in all four cases, the crash and fires were supposedly so intense that they vaporized the aircraft, which supposedly explains the lack of wreckage, luggage, aircraft debris, bodies, and body parts. But if the aircraft were vaporized, kindly calculate the intense heat required and what would happy to bodies and body parts subjected to such aircraft-vaporizing heat.
If DNA was found, why not more of the aircraft? Conversely, because more of the aircraft wasn't found, how were they able to find DNA?
Hey, the lies on this could go either way and both ways at the same time just to keep it suppressed, and keep the FUD going.
Here's another point. Human remains were found in tiny pieces on the roof tops of adjacent buildings. Kindly calculate the energy required to sever a body into tiny pieces and eject it those distances. How do we know that the remains on those distant building roof tops was from WTC office workers or fire fighters and not those of the hijackers?
Take a step back and view the identity issue as thus. No arabic names were on the flight manifests that I have seen, and no names aligned with the named suspects/patsies which was broadcast within a couple days of the event complete with pictures. And when some of the named suspects are alive and well in foreign countries and disputing their involvement, a rational person would think: "Ah, just a case of identity theft that we've learned to be fearful of because of those damn Mexican laborers stealing the manual labor jobs that no one wants and having to fake their identification and social security information to be paid."
A hallmark of the G.W.Bush and his administration was to never admit they were wrong. On anything. Ever. Not even doing cocaine or not fulfilling national guard service. Nothing.
The FBI and others could easily have said, "Oops! My bad. Yes, indeed, identity theft occurred." The reason they didn't was that it opened up a can of worms for which they didn't have a full explanation worked out, and lying on the fly is bad form and is easily caught. No Arabic named passenger A on the manifest? Arabic named person alive and well? Then what passenger name X was used instead? How did the hijacker get that fake identification? Are there conflicts with the name X and a real person X already accounted for on the flight?
So, just like the initial NIST documents on the WTC destruction ignored WTC-7, just like the 9/11 Commission ignored and omitted things like Able Danger, Sibel Edmunds, Mr. Rodriquez, Mr. Jennings & Mr. Hesh, ... just like the NIST/FEMA assumed it was commercial aircraft and office fires so didn't test for accelerants or plutonium, the FBI on this hijacker front had to ignore this incongruity.
It was important for the 9/11 cheerleaders to be in lock-step on all points, however stupid or debunked. Keep repeating the lie. National Security was indeed at stake even if the cheerleaders suspected they were giving lip service to lies. If any of the lies are exposed, the whole house of cards could come down and the fallout will be our nation, certainly our govt, and most definitely the job security of those in govt at all levels.
Yes, they may have given their oath to the Constitution, but by golly their family still needs to be fed, and the consequence to wanna-be whistle-blowers was made clear. When did the Anthrax attacks occur, who was targeted, and who did they blame?
The issue with the DNA is an issue with the aircraft. You see, in all four cases, the crash and fires were supposedly so intense that they vaporized the aircraft, which supposedly explains the lack of wreckage, luggage, aircraft debris, bodies, and body parts. But if the aircraft were vaporized, kindly calculate the intense heat required and what would happy to bodies and body parts subjected to such aircraft-vaporizing heat.
If DNA was found, why not more of the aircraft? Conversely, because more of the aircraft wasn't found, how were they able to find DNA?
Hey, the lies on this could go either way and both ways at the same time just to keep it suppressed, and keep the FUD going.
Here's another point. Human remains were found in tiny pieces on the roof tops of adjacent buildings. Kindly calculate the energy required to sever a body into tiny pieces and eject it those distances. How do we know that the remains on those distant building roof tops was from WTC office workers or fire fighters and not those of the hijackers?
A-Body Mopar 9/11
I will try to be gentle with the uninformed (and purposely misinformed) sheep.
It is the truth that I am after. If I am mistaken on any point, I will admit I am wrong and apologize for steering you wrong. In fact, I will gladly eat my tin-foil hat if proven that "by golly, there was absolutely nothing fishy about 9/11 and no reason for a new investigation."
Discussion participants beware. Those who accuse others of wearing tin-foil hats should be prepared to seriously consider my propositions, act as responsible & respectful adults, and if warranted by the overwhelming evidence, eat that very same hat.
So, who wants to see how far down the rabbit hole really goes? Can you guess the twin rabbit holes that I champion?
In making my case for 9/11 conspiracy, let me first note that the official govt conspiracy theory (OGCT) has not been proven. They haven't made their case, and their arguments are full of inconsistencies, holes, and omissions. The govt has mounds of evidence that they could have released and made public a long time ago and put many outrageous conspiracy theories to rest. But they didn't and haven't and won't, because the evidence doesn't support it. The videos from the gas station and hotel come to mind. Or how about the videos from the airports that conclusively prove exactly who went through security and who boarded the planes? I've never seen all 19, just 2 or 3. For these reasons and many others, the named hijackers (patsies) are in doubt.
Boxcutters? Mention boxcutters in support of the OGCT and you forfeit. Only one reported telephone call mentioned boxcutters. The problems are: (1) seat back phones on that plane weren't operational, (2) cellphones don't work at high altitude, and (3) the trial of so-and-so (whose name I can't spell at the moment) brought forth evidence that the money-call lasted 0 seconds -- never connected. No boxcutters, and TSA now confiscates nail clippers and toothpaste and has you walk without shoes to have pictures taken of your junk if they don't cop a feel as well.
Know who Phillip Zelikow is? While at Harvard he actually wrote about the use, and misuse, of history in policymaking. As he noted in his own words, “contemporary” history is “defined functionally by those critical people and events that go into forming the public’s presumptions about its immediate past. The idea of ‘public presumption’,” he explained, “is akin to [the] notion of ‘public myth’ but without the negative implication sometimes invoked by the word ‘myth.’ Such presumptions are beliefs (1) thought to be true (although not necessarily known to be true with certainty), and (2) shared in common within the relevant political community.”
Dr. Phillip Zelikow is the guy who wrote The 9/11 Commission Report and was an expert in how to misuse public trust and create PUBLIC MYTHS.
For those patriots and Christians who believe and support the OGCT on 9/11 as the God's honest truth, let this be the appetizer into their bitter meal about how our US govt knowingly deceived and manipulated us.
It is the truth that I am after. If I am mistaken on any point, I will admit I am wrong and apologize for steering you wrong. In fact, I will gladly eat my tin-foil hat if proven that "by golly, there was absolutely nothing fishy about 9/11 and no reason for a new investigation."
Discussion participants beware. Those who accuse others of wearing tin-foil hats should be prepared to seriously consider my propositions, act as responsible & respectful adults, and if warranted by the overwhelming evidence, eat that very same hat.
So, who wants to see how far down the rabbit hole really goes? Can you guess the twin rabbit holes that I champion?
In making my case for 9/11 conspiracy, let me first note that the official govt conspiracy theory (OGCT) has not been proven. They haven't made their case, and their arguments are full of inconsistencies, holes, and omissions. The govt has mounds of evidence that they could have released and made public a long time ago and put many outrageous conspiracy theories to rest. But they didn't and haven't and won't, because the evidence doesn't support it. The videos from the gas station and hotel come to mind. Or how about the videos from the airports that conclusively prove exactly who went through security and who boarded the planes? I've never seen all 19, just 2 or 3. For these reasons and many others, the named hijackers (patsies) are in doubt.
Boxcutters? Mention boxcutters in support of the OGCT and you forfeit. Only one reported telephone call mentioned boxcutters. The problems are: (1) seat back phones on that plane weren't operational, (2) cellphones don't work at high altitude, and (3) the trial of so-and-so (whose name I can't spell at the moment) brought forth evidence that the money-call lasted 0 seconds -- never connected. No boxcutters, and TSA now confiscates nail clippers and toothpaste and has you walk without shoes to have pictures taken of your junk if they don't cop a feel as well.
Know who Phillip Zelikow is? While at Harvard he actually wrote about the use, and misuse, of history in policymaking. As he noted in his own words, “contemporary” history is “defined functionally by those critical people and events that go into forming the public’s presumptions about its immediate past. The idea of ‘public presumption’,” he explained, “is akin to [the] notion of ‘public myth’ but without the negative implication sometimes invoked by the word ‘myth.’ Such presumptions are beliefs (1) thought to be true (although not necessarily known to be true with certainty), and (2) shared in common within the relevant political community.”
Dr. Phillip Zelikow is the guy who wrote The 9/11 Commission Report and was an expert in how to misuse public trust and create PUBLIC MYTHS.
For those patriots and Christians who believe and support the OGCT on 9/11 as the God's honest truth, let this be the appetizer into their bitter meal about how our US govt knowingly deceived and manipulated us.
2010-12-09
Another Failed Google Searcher
Dear Mr. Albury writes:
No, it is not so easily explained by long-lasting debris fires, because debris and rubble sat on top of it, smothered it, and made it difficult for air/oxygen to fuel such fires, particularly when the fire department began dumping water on it as well.
Moreover, you should Google what temperatures a debris fire, or an office fire, or even a jet fueled fire can reach, thereby further shooting down your explanation. Mr. Limey can help you on this, because he was recently given a tutorial on this on another of Mr. McKee's articles.
Your statements about nanothermite and other explosives not producing pools of molten metal are only half true. The half that is false is that those mechanisms could indeed produce pools of molten metal; the half that is true is that those mechanisms could not maintain those pools of molten metal over time.
This is (probably) true.
Now if you really want an Occam Razor easy explanation for the detected temperatures up to ~1400F, try multiple milli-nukes (as is 1/1000th the nukes you are envisioning). Unspent and fizzling left-over nuclear material from companion fracticided milli-nukes can easily explain the recorded temperatures, their duration, the methods employed in the clean-up, the high security of the area, the suppression of photos & images, the shipping off of materials for recycling, the song-and-dance dog-and-pony show of various alphabet soup govt agencies to control the reports, control the message, control the propaganda...
Señor El Once
The USGS thermal imaging detected temperatures up to ~1400F. Easily explained by the long-lasting debris fires, and hot enough to melt lead from UPS systems, or to keep fuselage and building aluminum molten. Simply put, nanothermite and other explosives wouldn’t produce pools of molten metal, and no incendiary known to mankind stays hot for more than a few minutes.
No, it is not so easily explained by long-lasting debris fires, because debris and rubble sat on top of it, smothered it, and made it difficult for air/oxygen to fuel such fires, particularly when the fire department began dumping water on it as well.
Moreover, you should Google what temperatures a debris fire, or an office fire, or even a jet fueled fire can reach, thereby further shooting down your explanation. Mr. Limey can help you on this, because he was recently given a tutorial on this on another of Mr. McKee's articles.
Your statements about nanothermite and other explosives not producing pools of molten metal are only half true. The half that is false is that those mechanisms could indeed produce pools of molten metal; the half that is true is that those mechanisms could not maintain those pools of molten metal over time.
No incendiary known to mankind stays hot for more than a few minutes.
This is (probably) true.
Now if you really want an Occam Razor easy explanation for the detected temperatures up to ~1400F, try multiple milli-nukes (as is 1/1000th the nukes you are envisioning). Unspent and fizzling left-over nuclear material from companion fracticided milli-nukes can easily explain the recorded temperatures, their duration, the methods employed in the clean-up, the high security of the area, the suppression of photos & images, the shipping off of materials for recycling, the song-and-dance dog-and-pony show of various alphabet soup govt agencies to control the reports, control the message, control the propaganda...
Señor El Once
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Pretty Weak Nukes? By jove, I think he's got it.
Dear Mr. Plumber,
Your response was very witty and crafty, and made me laugh. Such talent you have.
Mr. Plumber wrote:
As long as the pictures are ignored and no attention is brought to them, I agree that they remain a trivial detail.
Why would the pictures that document EMP effects of milli-nukes on vehicles be extraneous? Please explain.
All electronic equipment shutting down is an over-generalization and misrepresents the environment. The EMP in question was intended to be contained within the steel chex mesh of the towers. But, a smaller percentage of EMP slipped out through window slits at certain heights, and to damage all electronic equipment would first have to contend with other structures blocking and shielding as well as the radial distance diminishing the EMP intensity.
What little evidence I have still has to be addressed instead of laughed off. If milli-nukes does not explain the damage to vehicles as depicted in the links to Dr. Judy Woods limited hangout website, please explain how a gravitational collapse does.
What is "fire creates ash" supposed to mean or explain? Ash contains no material that can be consumed by flames and is not on fire, so how would this explain the vehicle damage? Dr. Woods even shows where the vehicles were located using Google maps, in many cases a journey too far for flaming ash.
Mr. Plumber wrote:
You are absolutely correct when you say: "If millinukes were used then lots of stuff would have vaporized, not just human remains." Just keep in mind that millinukes does not equate with kiloton nukes that you constantly envision; they were designed for limited yield; they were likely shaped charges to direct the energy in a useful direction. Testimony and pictorial evidence shows very little of anything that is recognizable as a telephone, a computer, a chair, a desk, a cubicle partition, etc. Could they have been vaporized, Mr. Plumber? And if milli-nukes didn't vaporize them, how does gravitational acceleration explain the massive energy sink that their crushing into nothingness represents?
Yes, please indeed note the large pieces of the building that remains in tact, namely the chex mesh of the outer structure that was needed to help bound the millinucluear side effects. The solid core? Gone.
By jove, I think Mr. Plumber has finally got it when he writes: "Pretty weak nukes I guess idk." By design and intent. For the operation to succeed in moving the giant America into action and in a steerable direction, the nukes could not be large.
Mr. Plumber wrote:
I don't need to connect dots. I just need to plant seeds, and your readership will connect them. Occam Razor and science are precisely why milli-nukes remains in the discussion.
Señor El Once
Your response was very witty and crafty, and made me laugh. Such talent you have.
Mr. Plumber wrote:
Yes, fire creates ash…any questions? Ok moving on. Have you maybe thought that the ‘OGCT’ is ignoring the photos because that’s a trivial detail? Your accusations about it proving millinukes or EMP blasts is quite frankly, extraneous. Why didn’t all electronic equipment shut down when the EMP blast was initiated? You are adding a lot of claims which you have little evidence for.
As long as the pictures are ignored and no attention is brought to them, I agree that they remain a trivial detail.
Why would the pictures that document EMP effects of milli-nukes on vehicles be extraneous? Please explain.
All electronic equipment shutting down is an over-generalization and misrepresents the environment. The EMP in question was intended to be contained within the steel chex mesh of the towers. But, a smaller percentage of EMP slipped out through window slits at certain heights, and to damage all electronic equipment would first have to contend with other structures blocking and shielding as well as the radial distance diminishing the EMP intensity.
What little evidence I have still has to be addressed instead of laughed off. If milli-nukes does not explain the damage to vehicles as depicted in the links to Dr. Judy Woods limited hangout website, please explain how a gravitational collapse does.
What is "fire creates ash" supposed to mean or explain? Ash contains no material that can be consumed by flames and is not on fire, so how would this explain the vehicle damage? Dr. Woods even shows where the vehicles were located using Google maps, in many cases a journey too far for flaming ash.
Mr. Plumber wrote:
On to the vaporization…If millinukes were used then lots of stuff would have vaporized, not just human remains. Why are such large pieces of the building in tact? The core looked pretty solid to me. Pretty weak nukes I guess idk.
You are absolutely correct when you say: "If millinukes were used then lots of stuff would have vaporized, not just human remains." Just keep in mind that millinukes does not equate with kiloton nukes that you constantly envision; they were designed for limited yield; they were likely shaped charges to direct the energy in a useful direction. Testimony and pictorial evidence shows very little of anything that is recognizable as a telephone, a computer, a chair, a desk, a cubicle partition, etc. Could they have been vaporized, Mr. Plumber? And if milli-nukes didn't vaporize them, how does gravitational acceleration explain the massive energy sink that their crushing into nothingness represents?
Yes, please indeed note the large pieces of the building that remains in tact, namely the chex mesh of the outer structure that was needed to help bound the millinucluear side effects. The solid core? Gone.
By jove, I think Mr. Plumber has finally got it when he writes: "Pretty weak nukes I guess idk." By design and intent. For the operation to succeed in moving the giant America into action and in a steerable direction, the nukes could not be large.
Mr. Plumber wrote:
My eyes are open. But you have many more dots to connect my friend. Occam’s Razor eliminates nearly every claim you make. Use science, not your feelings.
I don't need to connect dots. I just need to plant seeds, and your readership will connect them. Occam Razor and science are precisely why milli-nukes remains in the discussion.
Señor El Once
Feelings Trap. Oh my.
Dear Mr. Plumber writes:
I fully agree that eye-witnesses are prone to mistakes. And eye-witness testimony can be manipulated. Ever hear of witness tampering? Ever hear of evidence tampering? Ever hear of report fudging? Lots of tools available to get the story headed where they want.
Mr. Plumber writes:
You explicitly asked for me feelings. You didn't ask me what I thought or had reasoned. You didn't even ask for evidence.
What Mr. Plumber does next is a cheap shot:
Mr. Plumber didn't ask for evidence. He asked for feelings on this particular matter. I indulged Mr. Plumber in his little game. O-ooh, he got me. I got caught in his feelings trap, and am now proven to be a bad scientist! Ouch! Drats, that really hurts. Kudos and curses to your crafty little trap that you played me to walk right into. You got me this time, you little bugger you.
Señor El Once
El Once said, “In general, the statements someone makes immediately after an event, as opposed to later points in time, are the most accurate.”
Numerous of innocent people have gone to jail and placed on death row merely because someone picked them out of a lineup because their memory was so “fresh.” Because eye-witnesses are prone to the same mistakes as you or I, we should always take their claims with a grain of salt. They never prove anything by themselves, they should be used as support or looked at after the fact, then we can see if we can make sense of their claims.
I fully agree that eye-witnesses are prone to mistakes. And eye-witness testimony can be manipulated. Ever hear of witness tampering? Ever hear of evidence tampering? Ever hear of report fudging? Lots of tools available to get the story headed where they want.
Mr. Plumber writes:
El Once said, “My feeling is that his “correction” to his statements at a later point in time rings of outsider manipulation that has coached him to try to spin it away from the lack of bodies…”
Thank you for not thinking scientifically and for proving my point by making your “theory” unfalsifiable. The key word, as you so thoughtfully put in italics, is feeling. Nicely done.
You explicitly asked for me feelings. You didn't ask me what I thought or had reasoned. You didn't even ask for evidence.
What Mr. Plumber does next is a cheap shot:
Like any bad scientist, you are fond of your feelings. If being subjective and using your feelings are a form of evidence, then you can prove anything you want, which of course you do because you go on to claim how it “rings” of outsider manipulation. You’re attempts to make sense of erroneous quotes is pathetic. You have no proof that Miller’s subsequent quotes were manipulated at all. All you have are your feelings. Way to investigate.
Mr. Plumber didn't ask for evidence. He asked for feelings on this particular matter. I indulged Mr. Plumber in his little game. O-ooh, he got me. I got caught in his feelings trap, and am now proven to be a bad scientist! Ouch! Drats, that really hurts. Kudos and curses to your crafty little trap that you played me to walk right into. You got me this time, you little bugger you.
Señor El Once
2010-12-08
Chop, chop: Let's Learn Properties of Steel
Dear Mr. Limey,
The "chop, chop" nit should be directed at me, instead of Mr. McKee. But since you drag me into this, I might as well address your concerns.
Mr. Limey wrote:
Having problems with the Google, are we, sir? You could learn a lot by entering into Google phrases like "steel blast furnace", "temperatures weakening iron", "temperature steel loses strength", and "temperature jet fuel burns".
What temperature does steel lose strength? At about 550° C (1,000° F) steel is at 50% strength and at about 800° C (1472° F) structural steel loses 90% of its strength. The properties of steel vary widely, depending on its alloying elements.
What temperature does jet fuel reach in open air? 287.5 °C (549.5 °F).
Already you should be seeing a problem that jet fuel can't heat steel hot enough to lose 50% of its strength, and this is before the heat conductivity of steel in a structure is factored in. And this is before we observe that the buildings were over-designed by at least a factor of 2 and that NIST said the jet fuel burned off in the first few minutes (assuming of course that it was a commercial jet).
The "chop, chop" nit should be directed at me, instead of Mr. McKee. But since you drag me into this, I might as well address your concerns.
Mr. Limey wrote:
How about that factual backup for your comment that the fires would not have got hot enough to weaken the steel. Come on man, chop, chop!
Having problems with the Google, are we, sir? You could learn a lot by entering into Google phrases like "steel blast furnace", "temperatures weakening iron", "temperature steel loses strength", and "temperature jet fuel burns".
What temperature does steel lose strength? At about 550° C (1,000° F) steel is at 50% strength and at about 800° C (1472° F) structural steel loses 90% of its strength. The properties of steel vary widely, depending on its alloying elements.
What temperature does jet fuel reach in open air? 287.5 °C (549.5 °F).
Already you should be seeing a problem that jet fuel can't heat steel hot enough to lose 50% of its strength, and this is before the heat conductivity of steel in a structure is factored in. And this is before we observe that the buildings were over-designed by at least a factor of 2 and that NIST said the jet fuel burned off in the first few minutes (assuming of course that it was a commercial jet).
Labels:
Limey,
McKee,
Señor El Once,
Truth and Shadows
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